These are the emails we wrote while figuring out whether we were multiple or not.

From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec 4 15:18:38 2000
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:49:03 -0800
To: darkpersonalities@topica.com
Subject: RE: [darkpersonalities] I'd like to introduce us

 

black_rose_thorn wrote:
> Yeah - for a while she thought she was just "doing this" on some level 
> to feel unique, but when she tried to control me and could not, she 
> realized I am something else, and not just something unreal.  

I've felt that. 

Mostly we're more blurry but there are people who just take off. 

There's a big angry thing shaped like a raven and she digs her claws in 
and flies off with us sometimes. Sometimes she just sits there. 
Sometimes she has other feelings. 

Or maybe that's not even another person, I don't know. Hey look, you can 
watch the self-doubt set in. Maybe I'm just so distanced from whatever 
feelings are going on that I make them manifest outside my entire body. 

It's just that that's the most obvious example I can think of of things 
that happen that I can't control when I consciously try. 

I can feel her right now. 

Actually I do have another example - letting conversations happen inside 
my head the other day, the one I think of as the asshole (in the nicest 
possible way of course...) chose the name Steven. 

I think we were thinking about names idly, but I push names away. 

Because you know, what if I'm just picking names I like? What if I just 
give names to things that aren't other people and decide they are and 
I'm wrong? What if I end up with names that are taken from people I know 
- even if it's cause real people inside like the names? 

But ANYway - the name Steven was one of those names, I think it was on a 
truck we passed or something. I rejected it and changed the subject but 
it kept coming back and it was obvious whose it was. 

It kinda helps me to be able to say "and I was all, that's a STUPID 
name!" because I can think "see, I am so clearly a different person 
having a conversation with someone there...."

...wow, I can really feel the raven-one right now. Poking into the top 
of my head and stretching her wings down my arms. Everything pulled back 
and went distant as I typed. It tingles. A lot. That says more to me 
than anything else has really. 

I never thought I'd say that much. Wow. It seems like such little 
experiences and yet....
 
>Everybody 
> is unique, everybody in the world, there is no such thing as "normal", 
> only average, is what I think.

I agree :-)

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:18:42 2000

targa yes wrote:
> >From: kaleidoscope system 
> >Reply-To: darkpersonalities@topica.com
> >To: darkpersonalities@topica.com
> >Subject: RE: [darkpersonalities] interesting...
> >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:07:02 -0800
> >
> >targa yes wrote:
> > > our separations feel really fluid, too.  we used to worry it meant we
> > > were
> > > "making it up" or "not really multiple."  now we feel more like letting
> > > our
> > > mind(s) experiment with how to be, and watching to see where it takes
> > > us.
> >
> >Really? That doesn't mean you're not-really-multiple?
> 
> 
> Well, who decides?  I mean, I am not going to let the American 
> Psychiatric 
> Association decide, are you?  They wrote the fucking rulebook.  Sorry to 
> be 
> so hostile, it's not directed at you.

I know! I'm there! 
I would never let the APA decide anything about me, but I'm sure I would 
let other multiples decide. I tend to be like "you are real and valid to 
me! i will put my identity in your hands!" At least at first. 

> Now, it feels like sometimes we KNOW when we are kris, and we almost 
> always 
> know when we are [little ones whose names can't be put out in public 
> here].  
> I am really new at being out, so sometimes I can't keep my own self 
> alone 
> out here (I'm only out online, never been out anyplace else that I can 
> think 
> of more than a moment or 2).  If someone else has ideas about what I'm 
> thinking or writing, they get incorporated into what I'm writing.  That 
> used 
> to bother us (it happens with all of us, as far as I can tell) but now 
> we 
> say, hmm, that's interesting, and go on about our business.

Hmmm, that's interesting :-) 

> I know we are all here.  I know we are fluid, sometimes more than 
> others.  
> For Kris and [her], the point of separation was really around who was 
> gonna 
> love this guy sexually, and that's the point where the switch was 
> completely 
> clear.  Usually it's not so clear.  Sometimes when the girls are feeling 
> 
> depressed, and sinking, they remember, Oh!  that's Beth! and then they 
> are 
> relieved because the depression won't stay in any long-term way; when 
> someone else comes out, and Beth goes back in, they won't feel it any 
> more.
> 
> We try to have fun with it.  It's our mind(s) to do with what we want 
> to, 
> right?

Hmmmmm. That sounds a lot like my experience, at least on the surface, 
and I'm even newer at this so who knows what's next. 

Of course, there's that sort of push and pull around "new at this" - 
really it's more like "if this is happening, it was probably always 
around somehow, so let's look at where that might have been and see what 
that tells us." Bits and pieces... 

When thinking about names the other day, I thought that it was funny 
that "kali" might be a nickname for "kaleidoscope," because I had a 
roleplaying character named Kali once. 

Then I realized that it would be "kalei" not "kali" at all. But it had 
led to some interesting thoughts about how she was the really 
level-headed outgoing one who called people on their shit, quite 
different from who I was. 

And I thought a bit about how I sort of have someone, or at least an 
aspect or role of myself, who does that with people now. And then I 
realized that what I really, really have is someone who fills the role 
that Kali's partner did in the game - a total caretaker emotional role. 

I don't know if that means anything about me and roleplaying though. 
Playing them both at once always felt very clearly like... using 
different fingers. Like playing the piano or something and using two 
fingers from one hand versus two fingers from the other hand. 

But I always assumed that was how it felt to everyone, like they were 
switching different parts of themselves to be out front. Oops, that 
sounded really multiple. Like I stored the bits of my brain that would 
perform "Kali" over HERE, and the bits for other people over HERE, and I 
was just moving my attention to one or the other of them... Well anyway. 


Now I'm just rambling. 

Er. So to get back to what you said. For me it feels rather like there's 
this me that I've always thought of as me - whoever "me" is, let's not 
get into THAT. 

And the more I think about multiplicity and learn about people's 
experiences with it, the more I feel sort of breaks or bumps in the "me" 
that I thought was so singular. (Which I'd always thought covered quite 
a bit of ground, too.) 

And as I think about them, I can recognize different areas they cover. 
Like, I watch my own behavior and notice when something that I say - 
which always seems perfectly normal to me - sounds like a *total 
asshole* thing to say when it comes out. 

And not just like I stick my foot in my mouth, but more like when 
there's a certain amount of time that this behavior continues. I'll say 
something, and notice that I'm being an asshole, and notice a 
disconnection between who I was thinking of as "me" and who's making a 
decision to say something really inappropriate that they think is funny. 
(Which I often also think is funny - but I wouldn't say it because it's 
mean or whatever.) 

And what you were describing above, about for example Beth being out and 
realizing that's why you're depressed, sounds like what I'm 
experiencing. Having that blurriness between people, and not necessarily 
realizing when someone's there and making an impression on the current 
situation. I think. 

Most of all I like "We try to have fun with it.  It's our mind(s) to do 
with what we want to, right?" That's so true and so wonderful. It really 
helps me not take this so seriously :-) I've been thinking so hard about 
it, and you know - it's okay no matter what I am or who's there or 
what's going on, because it's just the same mind(s) that I've been 
playing with and doing what I (we) want to with all along. I like that. 
I've been feeling more like I'm making a decision that will change 
everything, and that's not accurate at all. 

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:18:49 2000

Anachronic Army wrote:
> We personally believe that a multiple is two or more
> people living in one body. I can't tell you anything
> more than that, because every multiple system is
> different. Sure, there are some commonalities, but
> again... it depends on who you ask...

When I read that, I thought "oh, that feels so right to me, that means I 
am a multiple!" And then I started questioning it all again. :-)

> That's cool. We have more of the sensation of standing
> beside someone we're watching, if one of us happens to
> be near the surface when someone else is out... or
> like if we were in a virtual reality game or something
> - looking in the mirror, you see someone else that
> isn't you when you look in the eyes. Does that make
> sense? For our system personally, it's not so much a
> feeling of "being John Malcovich", but more of being
> in the body next to John Malcovich.

Hm. I think I get things like that sometimes. 

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:18:57 2000

> Wonderful ideas!  I would add this:  NO ONE IS TO BE TOUCHED FOR ANY 
> REASON
> IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED.  That goes for everyone concerned.
> 
> Stinger the Bitch

I don't know why but I LOVE your name. It really resonated with us when 
we read it. 
 
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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:02 2000

Anachronic Army wrote:
> We don't have a Mary in our system... incidentally...
> not that it matters.

God. If my immediate reaction is "We have two" (and second most 
immediate is to cut that off before the third word is even out) how do I 
know if it means I'm actually hearing that we have two Marys or if it 
just means that I'm leaving that part of my brain open that might (for 
lack of a better description and I'll go into this more in another post) 
make something like that up?

I don't know. I have a really creative mind. I've always been able to 
sort of open up a part of it and just pull out stories or poetry or any 
other words I need to make up. That's basically what I mean. 

If I'm questioning multiplicity (in EVERY POST and I'm sorry I keep 
harassing people to validate me!) and leave that part of my brain open, 
what if it just automatically queries "what would my response be to this 
if i were multiple" and pops that answer out? 

That sounds (to me) at once really pathetically obviously multiple, and 
still valid because I know what it feels like to let that part of me 
just talk away like that. Of course, the third level to that is that 
multiplicity is a pretty good explanation for why I can just "let words 
happen in my head" or "onto paper," isn't it? Maybe. 

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:05 2000

black_rose_thorn wrote:
> I say "we" cause sometimes it's like when we 2 work together we turn 
> into something else that is all quiet and purposeful and completely 
> intuitive - something that just knows what it wants to say.

More than the sum of your parts?

> > Actually I do have another example - letting conversations happen inside 
> > 
> > 
> > my head the other day, the one I think of as the asshole (in the nicest 
> > possible way of course...) chose the name Steven. 
> 
> I used to have conversations in my head all the time, but they were 
> imagined conversations with people I knew, like, "I'll say this to Jim, 
> and he'll say that to me".  

Exactly. I mean, I do that as well, all the time. I suppose I do it just 
as much with other people I know as with myself. 

> > I'm wrong? What if I end up with names that are taken from people I know 
> > 
> > 
> > - even if it's cause real people inside like the names? 
> 
> I'm sure eventually you'll figure it out.  My own name that I use with 
> other people, with everyone, is not my real name.  I believe that names 
> are power, and I don't want anyone to have power over me.  It's just a 
> superstition of mine.  So I tell everyone to call me Rose.  I do "feel" 
> like a Rose on some level, but more as "Black-Thorn-Rose" than anything 
> else.

Oh, I do that. Well not with everyone. Names are powerful and useful 
things. 

So maybe we have a Steven (the asshole), an Andromeda or possibly a 
Molly, and an alleged two Marys that I haven't even met. Oh, and I think 
the raven thing has been called Vi ("because Vi sounds like an angry 
name"). Or maybe we just have a Steven, or maybe we don't have nobody. 

> > But ANYway - the name Steven was one of those names, I think it was on a 
> > 
> > 
> > truck we passed or something. I rejected it and changed the subject but 
> > it kept coming back and it was obvious whose it was. 
> > 
> > It kinda helps me to be able to say "and I was all, that's a STUPID 
> > name!" because I can think "see, I am so clearly a different person 
> > having a conversation with someone there...."
> 
> I understand that one.  Karen got all ticked at me one time cause I 
> bought my fave brand of cigs, not hers (hers were ultra-baby-lights).  

god, then why smoke at all? ;)

> The real reason she was mad was cause it was proof that we are different 
> 
> in some very real ways.

That's funny. And useful. 

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:07 2000

targa yes wrote:
> We think the computer is a really good way to hear your insiders; you 
> can 
> watch what they write.

Hm. I haven't done much watching in that arena yet, except in the realm 
of watching my own behavior/speech online as well as off. Some 
differences show up better online, like extreme perkiness and 
outgoingness. 
I keep expecting to go through my dp mail and see stuff from other 
people under my address though ;)

> We think that opening oneself up to experiences like this just broadens 
> people, not makes them "make things up" and become crazy.

That's good :-D

> We think that questioning and wondering is natural, and will go on for a 
> 
> while when one is new at it, and can make you a little nuts but, at 
> least 
> for us, relaxed after a while.  We learned to look at those questioning 
> thoughts and say, "that's interesting, too."

That's really good to know. 

> We remember what this feels like, tho.  We felt kinda crazy for a while. 
>  
> Not so much at the thought that we were multiple, but at the 
> wondering/questioning/I-made-it-up feeling.

In-fucking-deed. 

> You'll get through it, I suspect.  Hope you can relax enough to sleep at 
> 
> night.

Oh yes, no problems there :-)  

> -lots of others here

You all rock :-)

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:10 2000

So now I have these possibilities: 
1. That I'm a singleton with a very creative mind who anthropomorphizes 
the "places I'm in." (As in "oh, I'm in the analytical place today.")
2. That I have one main "me" with overlapping other people with whom I 
am co-conscious (I was going to say "and share a memory" before I 
remembered that having major memory slippage was what led me to start 
questioning in the first place!) 
3. That there are lots of people with no main "me" and my sense of 
singular self comes from a degree of co-consciousness. Then who am I? 
wait, does that even make sense? I'm not sure it does. But mostly just 
the whole "which part of this am 'I'" thing is freaking me out. 
Everything else would be fine :) 
I've questioned many many levels of identity before, getting closer and 
closer to the basic stuff that is supposed to be identity itself. I'm 
lucky that I've always had a very strong sense of identity. but this is 
still a bit confusing. 

::changes subject:: I realized today that, well - I was thinking about 
names and about choosing them like if someone doesn't come with a name 
then they're not real or something. And today I finally realized "hey! 
people aren't BORN with names. Names are stupid handles we make up cause 
our society leans away from calling people things like 'you know, the 
guy with the long earlobes who works at the coffeeshop' all the time. 
Why SHOULD people come with names??"

It was mostly this idea that people had to come from this already-there 
world ... I'm going to shorthand this by naming it "The Brook And Seth 
Condition." :-) Which is ridiculous, because I've seen so many other 
ways for people to be, and to be found out about, and to live, right 
here amongst everyone. 

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From widgeon@nerdcore.zzn.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:12 2000

morgan todd wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, kaleidoscope system wrote:
> ks>I keep expecting to go through my dp mail and see stuff from other 
> ks>people under my address though ;)
> 
> heh. how do you know they haven't been and deleted it?

Evil!
I assume I would still have a good chance of seeing replies. I mean, I
don't think I lose time. 

> -- 
> "Here, sit. Stay a while, take off your backpack." 
> "No thanks, I like to stay in permanent flight mode." 
> -A girl and a guy sitting on a bench on Haste St.  

LOL!

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From aidan@geeks.linux.com Mon Dec  4 15:19:16 2000

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Chimera Jones wrote:

> ya know, it just NOW struck me that kaleidoscope system is you, aidan.
> and it explains why i kept thinking "this sounds like aidan"... 
> 
> hmm. are you trying to tell us something here?

::stares at you for a moment over the top of my glasse::
::pushes glasses back up:: 
certainly not. 
:)

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From aidan@geeks.linux.com Mon Dec  4 15:47:33 2000

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Chimera Jones wrote:

> ya know, it just NOW struck me that kaleidoscope system is you, aidan.
> and it explains why i kept thinking "this sounds like aidan"... 

because it was? :) 
 
> hmm. are you trying to tell us something here?

yeees :)

well i was already questioning my singularity. and then i started
questioning it more the more i explored it. but i dunno, it was too
personal to just post under my own name until i was more sure. 

there are at least four littles (maybe more. there's one with a real foul
mouth and one who likes firetrucks and one who is FAR less mature than
lily and escaped from her in the toystore and one who was fairly
well-behaved and likes sparkly things.)  
and there is the raven thing and there is a cat person named Cat who is
very possessive and um... maybe neurotic about stuff like boundaries and
food and things. who looooooves lysand cause we got on the bus and
realized we didn't have any food and the bus was all going and stuff and
lysand was all "ok! here are our options! we can get off here and walk
back or see if the kresge coffee house is open or go back into town later
or..." and it was beautiful. 
and there is a bunch of regular people who are like um... there's someone
who's totally emotionally detached from stuff, and steven the asshole boy
who is actually quite nice and mature just kind of inappropriate... and
todd the hyper bouncy swishy boy... and andromeda rose the happy little
pagan romantic caretaker mushpot... and i forget who else. and it's soooo
cute, todd's never actually done anything with the morgans. 

ok that's all 
::hides::

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